Shining spears, the complete edition

Taken from here: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/eldar/205782-repairing-our-codex-one-unit-time-part-ii.html

Post 1;

Our next unit to face the axe-head is Shining Spears.

I will be the first to admit that I wouldn't shed a tear if these guys were replaced by some completely different unit in the future. These guys are almost embarassingly bad for how much they cost. Since forgeworld mentioned they were in the process of creating TWO new aspects, we may very well see a jumppack melee unit emerge that will completely marginalise Shining Spears as we know them, ending with a final nail in the coffin.

But being the completionist I am (as well as an insomniac, it's 2.30pm and I've been awake since 10am yesterday) I will have to give them their dues.

Shining spears are IMO equipped with weapons that are too short range, much too low strength, they're too slow and have no staying power. Once they complete their charge they can jump 6" away, right? Only if they win, and even then, everything may charge at minimum 12" so you're boned right away.

So before I offer any changes, let's identify what they're meant to be. MC killers? Retard-level antitank? It seems like that's the case. Their initiative is too low to threaten HQ's and they don't have anywhere near enough attacks to handle any squad larger than 10 enemies.

Changes I propose are; they may charge after turbo boosting. Exarch gives them furious charge USR. Their assault phase movement feint is always 2d6". Strength of laser lance is now S7 AP3, star lance becomes s9 Ap1. Laser/Starlance are now 9" range weapons.

Exarch may equip a "D-bomb". The D-bomb is an s6+2d6 grenade which functions like a melta-bomb except that it ignores any rules that prevent the bomb from rolling +2d6. D-bombs cost 30pts and may only be used once per game. They add +2 to rolls on the damage chart.

I think that would make them pretty good actually. Maybe increase max squad size to 10?

Post 2;

I think that the unit is meant to be more of an anti MEQ close combat unit. The real problem I find with them though is that they just can't get the numbers to favour them enough in combat and with their high point cost and small unit size they will just slowly get eaten away by that hidden Power Fist in a Tactical Squad.

I disagree. Banshees were clearly designed to deal with MEQs and terminator-analogues. Banshees are given powerweapons but fail to be compelling against enemy HQ units, therefore making their target the next juiciest one down. On the other hand, shining spears have a s6 power weapons on the charge. That's double the strength of a banshee. There are arguments for both cases which are very good, but not all of them address the simple point that if you destroy an enemy unit on the turn you charge, you're open to all surrounding units shooting. Not to mention someone using 200+ pts of tactical marines or whatever to bait ~230 worth of jetbikes isn't a good exchange. Especially when you use the 7-turn economic theory. SSpears striking at s6 was meant to represent attacking things like mephiston, carnifex, necron destroyers, warboss etc. Low model count, MC toughness creatures with multiple wounds. Preferably with a low invulnerable save thus giving you the option to exarch-withdraw and get so safety should the target not die outright.

My solution to fixing this is first to help to give them enough punch to eat through a Marine Squad (or at least do some serious damage). This can be done either by giving the Shining Spears an extra attack each, or boosting their Weapon Skill to 5 so that they will be able to hit most opponents on a 3+.

Depending on how the codex grand-reformation occurs, you might find the public at large in favour of giving all shooting centric aspects +1bs and all melee focussed aspects +1ws. Here you might get your wish. I wouldn't count on an extra attack though. Otherwise a squad of 5 guys is putting out 16 s6/8 attacks which is more than 3 wraithlords + avatar make.

The second fix is to try and make them a little less vulnerable to those hidden Power fists that have become oh so common. A 5+ invulnerable save on the turn might do the trick. Fluff wise it could be justified by the speed unit will reach when crashing into combat.

The best I can say is that you expect to take 1 or 2 losses, then leave the unit open for being killed by shooting attacks whicle the spears charge a different unit altogether. Fulfills the condition I spoke about above and maximises the use of their kinda measly attacks.

These changes won't make Shinging Spears a great unit, but hopefully they can at least make them worth taking.

Post 3;

wow looks like I nerfed myself the one time i ever used shining spears then... completely did not remember the power weapons on the charge part *slaps self* thanks for pointing that out!

The biggest problem is the volume of attacks. You are paying about the same for 5 spears as you do for 10 tactical marines. 5 spears cannot do long distance shooting, and are an elite unit compared to the marines being a troops choice. Therefore the 5 bikes should be able to win an assault against 10 marines. Thats the benchmark. They just dont have enough attacks when you lose so many dice trying to hit WS4 enemies and you ARE going to roll 1's to wound as well. An extra attack and always having power weapons, only getting the strength bonus on the charge perhaps?

Which is where a farseer comes in, but that's a discussion for another time.. If autarchs granted preferred enemy to any squad they joined then that might work, since they can also take a laserlance AND powerweapon. Like I said above, I don't consider Spears to be MEQ killers in any sense. That being said, one of my proposals was to lift unit limits to 10 models a squad, which very definitely would give you MEQ killing powers, at the expense of nearly 450pts or so. At which point a seer council becomes a better option in almost all scenarios.

Post 4;

Fixes for Shining Spears first off the spears special rule is on 24/7 instead of the first round of combat,

I'm not sure I know why people want this. It's an inbuilt penalty system for poor decision making. Exactly the same as rolling psyker tests under a hood.

hit and run comes in for free,

Perhaps. If anything getting it for free would mean dividing the powers cost amongst the units minimum squad size. Suppose we leave it at 3. Now you have 42pt Spears. They retain hit&run regardless of there being an exarch, but they need to fork out for it somewhere.

points drop to no more then 25,

As I wrote up top it would be preferable not to change point values for units if possible. Once you start screwing around with a units cost, it throws off the original aim of improving the units stats. Why make a unit of spears cheaper if it's still a sub-par choice with no clear role that it can't perform effectively?

range of the lance goes 12" and AP 3.

AP3 yes. 12".. will need some justification. I'd like you to present a reasoned argument in favour of changes you propose.

I would to see them more as TEQ and high T killers instead of AT.
Well that's an acceptable goal.. but why give them AP3 if they're intended to kill things with an armour save of 2+... things that generally excel in melee and use powerfists?

I am trying to imagine in my head what a 25pt jetbike with a 12" s6 ap3 gun that counts as a s6 powerweapon in melee, that has hit&run as a base feature would look like.

The expressions of horror on any marine players face would be priceless, every time.

Post 5;

I would rather warlocks have their weapons count as force-weapons or something than give shining spears poisoned weapons. From where I'm sitting warlocks were never meant to become what they did. Warlocks on bikes are your heavyflamer option for dealing with tough hordes of Nobs etc.

Shining spears as I must have said a half dozen times by now, appear to be designed to fight MCs. And possibly dreadnoughts.

Post 6;

So this thread in summary seems a bit funny but this is what we've got so far as the most popular suggestions.

Lances in CC count as powerweapons permanently.
+2 attacks on the charge.
Shooting attacks are now AP3.
Give them a movement bonus. Somewhere.
Increase the strength of laser lance to at least S7
Add a fly-by attack/status-effect mechanic?

Based on what I've seen. Now we debate the points an a case by case basis. Remember people the objective is to make a unit that's worth the 35pts we pay. Generally speaking, reducing the points of the unit will still not address it's weaknesses, just make them easier to fit in.