> Implying anyone liked Kheradruakh
But yeah, GW shouldnt have genocided all the modeless characters
It's more complicated than that. PFP special rules at the time were stupid and it meant that early game DE we weaker by design in order to compensate for how powerful they *could* become. The issues naturally stem from that if they start out in a comparatively weaker state than similarly priced enemy models then after a couple of turns the DE stuff is more than likely just dead or fleeing, anything which did manage to land a killing blow only then becomes equal in designed power level to the opponents level, leaving the whole rest of the DE force underpowered still.
So Kheradruakh was a bad HQ because he stemmed from a bad unit which was subject to bad special rules. The basic Mandrake unit had no ranged attack and iirc couldn't benefit from stealth+shrouding, remember this codex launched at the end of 5th and with the benefit of hindsight it was purely done to introduce flyers to the new army (of which only 1 had a model at the time and the whole line of DE hasn't seen a single expansion of it's product line since 2012?).
The modern Mandrake isn't appreciably that much better than other 16pt models however by default a mandrake now gets 2A and an A2 18" weapon with PFP now triggering on turn 2 and improving for every turn afterwards.
People would probably really like Kheradruakh in the modern game especially if he allowed say 12" infiltrates within LOS and gives any mandrakes in the army 5++ while he is alive, has AP3 power weapons or whatever. The biggest thing for me that lets down mandrakes as they are currently is the lack of a basic save however they do fit the 'glass cannon' feel of DE the most of all DE models. They can hit really fucking hard and only get more powerful over time.
Wednesday, January 11, 2017
Friday, November 20, 2015
The following is an entirely reasonable question that I think I gave an entirely reasonable answer to. Enjoy.
I think the rules have had randomisation injected to lower the skill ceiling and create an artificially level playing field. If you can only ever reach so high because of mechanical limitations in the game then once you hit that level you merely wait for others to reach it also. In 40k's situation specifically you had dice for critically 5 things - shoot to hit, strength to wound, wound saves (armour/invulnerable etc) and then vehicle damage. Charging in 5th was 6" charge for infantry and walkers, 12" for beasts or characters with special rules. Morale checks.
Now we enter 6th edition - vehicles and buildings get damage charts reworked, exploding a vehicle made a technical roll of 7, exploding a building also harder. Charges get made random (I leave it up to you to decide if predictable charge distance was a negative factor [i]pro tip; it wasn't, it's part of what made melee armies work since you could semi-reliably position yourself for charging. In today's game you can literally fail a 3" charge, you have roughly a 25% failure rate to charge distances under 5". You have a 75% failure rate to charge over 10".[/i]). Psychic powers had their failure rates increased by virtue of deny the witch shenanigans. Lots more examples. I dont need to patronise you with a comprehensive list.
Codexes weren't simplified - let's say I agree with you, but bring it back around. Introducing more random variables stamps out the peaks and troughs of player performance, eliminates the bell curve through the law of large numbers and allows GW to post official figures about win/loss ratios being within 40/55%. It was used 4 years ago and I bought it then but now I've seen where they're going with it and I no longer like it.
If anything DE are bucking the trend with their codex progression from 5th->7th.
PFP made predictable and static. Poison weapons being the great equalizer that MC and special characters fear.
And yet still it is bloated with random elements. Let's make something clear - I don't believe 40k is a game about rolling dice, dice poker and craps exist for that. I believe 40k is about two army builds being tested against one another with an enormous amount of variation made possible by dice. But that is a contradictory statement; once dice take up too much of the gameplay it breaks down the viability of special weapons, special units, tactics and strategic plays. People start hedging their bets one of two ways - predictable performance with either 3+/4+ hit rolls etc, or they start banking on being favoured by the extreme performance swings of super powered highly random abilities (like elements of the daemon codex, CSM codex, psyker power generation etc etc). I'll look at a couple of specific examples right here:
Combat drugs - technically all of these are useful but some of them aren't worth it compared to other results against given enemies. It would be better if you just paid a flat unit tax (1 or 2pts per model, with all models in a unit either having drugs or not having drugs, ICs get to choose for themselves) and then choose what drug you took before the game started with all units using drugs that game being required to use the same drugs. In other words everyone uses Grave Lotus, or Hypex but not a mix of the two. "oh but that would be OP then" no it wouldn't because randomising whether you get an appropriate benefit or not vs just outright buying the benefit for an additional cost is the just the same thing but in a less sequitous method of approach. Also giving your [i]whole army[/i] combat drugs would quickly become too expensive and you would start sacrificing it on some units to free up points for more warm bodies.
Crucible of malediction - I guarantee you've never seen a player use this more than once. And here's why - http://statistics.about.com/od/ProbHelpandTutorials/a/Probabilities-For-Rolling-Three-Dice.htm
Instead of just giving the weapon 9" of range and calling it a day, they make it totally random which for a once-per-game weapon that only affects an extremely specific kind of enemy that you had to pre-buy before the game even began and at not insignificant cost I find to be credulous. Maybe you bank on hitting at 10" and crash your IC in to a group of jetbike warlocks or whatever, you fire the weapon off and only get 5" at a probability of 3%, you hit like what, 4 of them? And then another time you're getting way too close for comfort to some grey knights, fire off at full 18" on a probability of 0.5% and curse your luck because the law of averages is fucking you right in the ass right now, with 2W models soaking up damage and maintaining full combat effectiveness with the same damage output at 50% Wounds as at 100% Wounds compared to a big squad of 1W models that you could easily have killed half of them if you had the statistically average roll just simply there for your use instead of having to roll for it. Never mind it's a shooting attack, nevermind you only get to use it once.
By reducing predictability they reduce variety - some units and weapons especially those which are too random just get dropped completely. GW says wildly swinging games where winning or losing isn't a surety until the end of the last turn is fun - yeah I bet if you're the credulous type who doesn't believe that having the better team and the better strategies should give you the higher chance of winning. But the thing is people already do compensate for the winds of fate by buttoning down and making cookie-cutter lists that lack unit variety and hinge on 1, maybe 2, maybe 3 inherent properties of constituent units to flatten the randomisation and introduce the predictability they need to formulate a winning army list.
Why do you think that the rules are crap? They didn't change that much since third edition.
The codex rules didn't get easier either.
I think the rules have had randomisation injected to lower the skill ceiling and create an artificially level playing field. If you can only ever reach so high because of mechanical limitations in the game then once you hit that level you merely wait for others to reach it also. In 40k's situation specifically you had dice for critically 5 things - shoot to hit, strength to wound, wound saves (armour/invulnerable etc) and then vehicle damage. Charging in 5th was 6" charge for infantry and walkers, 12" for beasts or characters with special rules. Morale checks.
Now we enter 6th edition - vehicles and buildings get damage charts reworked, exploding a vehicle made a technical roll of 7, exploding a building also harder. Charges get made random (I leave it up to you to decide if predictable charge distance was a negative factor [i]pro tip; it wasn't, it's part of what made melee armies work since you could semi-reliably position yourself for charging. In today's game you can literally fail a 3" charge, you have roughly a 25% failure rate to charge distances under 5". You have a 75% failure rate to charge over 10".[/i]). Psychic powers had their failure rates increased by virtue of deny the witch shenanigans. Lots more examples. I dont need to patronise you with a comprehensive list.
Codexes weren't simplified - let's say I agree with you, but bring it back around. Introducing more random variables stamps out the peaks and troughs of player performance, eliminates the bell curve through the law of large numbers and allows GW to post official figures about win/loss ratios being within 40/55%. It was used 4 years ago and I bought it then but now I've seen where they're going with it and I no longer like it.
If anything DE are bucking the trend with their codex progression from 5th->7th.
PFP made predictable and static. Poison weapons being the great equalizer that MC and special characters fear.
And yet still it is bloated with random elements. Let's make something clear - I don't believe 40k is a game about rolling dice, dice poker and craps exist for that. I believe 40k is about two army builds being tested against one another with an enormous amount of variation made possible by dice. But that is a contradictory statement; once dice take up too much of the gameplay it breaks down the viability of special weapons, special units, tactics and strategic plays. People start hedging their bets one of two ways - predictable performance with either 3+/4+ hit rolls etc, or they start banking on being favoured by the extreme performance swings of super powered highly random abilities (like elements of the daemon codex, CSM codex, psyker power generation etc etc). I'll look at a couple of specific examples right here:
Combat drugs - technically all of these are useful but some of them aren't worth it compared to other results against given enemies. It would be better if you just paid a flat unit tax (1 or 2pts per model, with all models in a unit either having drugs or not having drugs, ICs get to choose for themselves) and then choose what drug you took before the game started with all units using drugs that game being required to use the same drugs. In other words everyone uses Grave Lotus, or Hypex but not a mix of the two. "oh but that would be OP then" no it wouldn't because randomising whether you get an appropriate benefit or not vs just outright buying the benefit for an additional cost is the just the same thing but in a less sequitous method of approach. Also giving your [i]whole army[/i] combat drugs would quickly become too expensive and you would start sacrificing it on some units to free up points for more warm bodies.
Crucible of malediction - I guarantee you've never seen a player use this more than once. And here's why - http://statistics.about.com/od/ProbHelpandTutorials/a/Probabilities-For-Rolling-Three-Dice.htm
Instead of just giving the weapon 9" of range and calling it a day, they make it totally random which for a once-per-game weapon that only affects an extremely specific kind of enemy that you had to pre-buy before the game even began and at not insignificant cost I find to be credulous. Maybe you bank on hitting at 10" and crash your IC in to a group of jetbike warlocks or whatever, you fire the weapon off and only get 5" at a probability of 3%, you hit like what, 4 of them? And then another time you're getting way too close for comfort to some grey knights, fire off at full 18" on a probability of 0.5% and curse your luck because the law of averages is fucking you right in the ass right now, with 2W models soaking up damage and maintaining full combat effectiveness with the same damage output at 50% Wounds as at 100% Wounds compared to a big squad of 1W models that you could easily have killed half of them if you had the statistically average roll just simply there for your use instead of having to roll for it. Never mind it's a shooting attack, nevermind you only get to use it once.
By reducing predictability they reduce variety - some units and weapons especially those which are too random just get dropped completely. GW says wildly swinging games where winning or losing isn't a surety until the end of the last turn is fun - yeah I bet if you're the credulous type who doesn't believe that having the better team and the better strategies should give you the higher chance of winning. But the thing is people already do compensate for the winds of fate by buttoning down and making cookie-cutter lists that lack unit variety and hinge on 1, maybe 2, maybe 3 inherent properties of constituent units to flatten the randomisation and introduce the predictability they need to formulate a winning army list.
Thursday, November 19, 2015
Another debate with someone who completely missed the point. The point is that kids are a victim too, being deliberately targeted over other market demographics because they're easier to sell to, thus dragging down the complexity of the game (from a player stand point) and introducing more and more randomness to compensate for a lack of skill through destroying the actual upper capacity of players potential skill level.
Children playing games? Horrors! Pushing little men around a tabletop is obviously an activity for mature adults that has no place in it for grubby little urchins. Seriously though, whence comes this contempt for kids? I don't know about you, but I used to be one, back when dinosaurs walked the earth. Most of us began gaming as children, our hands and faces always sticky with jam somehow, even when we hadn't eaten any jam. It helped us to develop into the clever, charming, and sexually attractive adults we are today.
We need to get kids playing these games if the hobby is to survive to another generation. Otherwise they'll all grow up grumpy and dull of mind, and become estate agents, corporate lawyers, and mid-level managers. Is that what you want?
I'm personally not disappointed with the current state of 40K at all. I think it's the best that it's ever been, it's just that my favourite faction has been excluded from this Rennaisance. GW has completely lost interest in all things Dark Eldar. Even their line of miniatures is gone from stores. This isn't the first time that has happened, but it's still disappointing.
Even so, I'm pretty sure I could still beat a child, if that were any consolation!
I don't have contempt for the kids, I have contempt for this game being dumbed down to appeal to a broader audience which is something it didn't need since tons of kids and teenagers bought the products already. GW has officially moved away from being a games company because of this; they know their game can't withstand scrutiny so they handwave it away.
It's no secret; without the GAME portion of 40k they'd have far fewer customers. It's also noteworthy that as little as 18 months ago their annual financial report smugly boasted they (paraphrasing) 'do not collect customer feedback', that they 'know what their customer base wants' even though they now earn as little money as they did in 2007. Funnily enough they've now started collecting customer feedback. Probably because it has at last been made unavoidable due to forecasts of closure within 10 years.
So this game makes everyone with an impressionable mind feel like a complete badass, just look at the gross verbosity used inside EVERY codex, EVERY fluff piece. It's nauseating for me and completely strips itself of any credibility because there is so much thesaurus abuse in each paragraph. I don't think there is enough room in a codex for so much crap but somehow they squeeze it in - all these loosely tied together events with a hair-string narrative and a desensitising glut of rich language. FW does it better - their books are tied to events and follow a cohesive plot with in most cases a beginning, middle and end, compared to GW's inhouse efforts which rub off to me as bullshit vertical slices that do a disservice to each army by drowning their character and culture under an ocean of anecdotal historical events. We don't learn anything about these factions aside from the already universally known stuff and then get told they are badasses and these are the events that prove how/why for 30 pages.
You know what this game needs more than -just simply more kids- buying and playing? It needs more adults, like Fritz and Jake the Mountain, guys who are actually socially adjusted and fun to be around, people who actually have their own disposable income to use on luxury products like tabletop miniatures. People who can rationally debate certain points without getting lost in a maze of relativism. I really hope you *enjoy* playing against all those kids because that's what you'll be getting more of until the games internal consistency is taken seriously and actually balanced towards people.
Did you actually watch the video? He even says too many random elements in game disproportionately favours weaker players (in video games and board games [and by extension tabletop games]) because it lowers the skill ceiling and undermines the power of skill by literally scamming you out of situations where you should have won.
Children playing games? Horrors! Pushing little men around a tabletop is obviously an activity for mature adults that has no place in it for grubby little urchins. Seriously though, whence comes this contempt for kids? I don't know about you, but I used to be one, back when dinosaurs walked the earth. Most of us began gaming as children, our hands and faces always sticky with jam somehow, even when we hadn't eaten any jam. It helped us to develop into the clever, charming, and sexually attractive adults we are today.
We need to get kids playing these games if the hobby is to survive to another generation. Otherwise they'll all grow up grumpy and dull of mind, and become estate agents, corporate lawyers, and mid-level managers. Is that what you want?
I'm personally not disappointed with the current state of 40K at all. I think it's the best that it's ever been, it's just that my favourite faction has been excluded from this Rennaisance. GW has completely lost interest in all things Dark Eldar. Even their line of miniatures is gone from stores. This isn't the first time that has happened, but it's still disappointing.
Even so, I'm pretty sure I could still beat a child, if that were any consolation!
I don't have contempt for the kids, I have contempt for this game being dumbed down to appeal to a broader audience which is something it didn't need since tons of kids and teenagers bought the products already. GW has officially moved away from being a games company because of this; they know their game can't withstand scrutiny so they handwave it away.
It's no secret; without the GAME portion of 40k they'd have far fewer customers. It's also noteworthy that as little as 18 months ago their annual financial report smugly boasted they (paraphrasing) 'do not collect customer feedback', that they 'know what their customer base wants' even though they now earn as little money as they did in 2007. Funnily enough they've now started collecting customer feedback. Probably because it has at last been made unavoidable due to forecasts of closure within 10 years.
So this game makes everyone with an impressionable mind feel like a complete badass, just look at the gross verbosity used inside EVERY codex, EVERY fluff piece. It's nauseating for me and completely strips itself of any credibility because there is so much thesaurus abuse in each paragraph. I don't think there is enough room in a codex for so much crap but somehow they squeeze it in - all these loosely tied together events with a hair-string narrative and a desensitising glut of rich language. FW does it better - their books are tied to events and follow a cohesive plot with in most cases a beginning, middle and end, compared to GW's inhouse efforts which rub off to me as bullshit vertical slices that do a disservice to each army by drowning their character and culture under an ocean of anecdotal historical events. We don't learn anything about these factions aside from the already universally known stuff and then get told they are badasses and these are the events that prove how/why for 30 pages.
You know what this game needs more than -just simply more kids- buying and playing? It needs more adults, like Fritz and Jake the Mountain, guys who are actually socially adjusted and fun to be around, people who actually have their own disposable income to use on luxury products like tabletop miniatures. People who can rationally debate certain points without getting lost in a maze of relativism. I really hope you *enjoy* playing against all those kids because that's what you'll be getting more of until the games internal consistency is taken seriously and actually balanced towards people.
Did you actually watch the video? He even says too many random elements in game disproportionately favours weaker players (in video games and board games [and by extension tabletop games]) because it lowers the skill ceiling and undermines the power of skill by literally scamming you out of situations where you should have won.
Wednesday, November 18, 2015
Posted most recently on The Dark City; a fan site dedicated to dark eldar players and their unique army. As the reader can see from what I am saying however, things are getting pretty damned tenuous at Nottingham, with the company Games Workshop moving away from ensuring their game (which they refuse to acknowledge as being a major vessel for model sales despite the correlations between an ailing gaming system and falling profits for the last 8 years) is balanced and correctly caters towards niche armies that rely on strategy, planning and expert tactical choices and towards a game where rolling more dice means a more equal distribution of wins and losses between players, *suggesting* to the unwary and unsavvy among us that the game is balanced because the trending of wins and losses has closed the gap and therefore that increasingly random gameplay results is good for the game in ignorance to the frustration and rage it causes the players who used to be able to talk about the game seriously with outsiders, players who can't do that now anymore because their hobby is a joke and the game is designed to cater for children who can't play tabletop wargames very well.
I'd like to weigh in here briefly and say that BDobbins did an excellent series of videos on some of the concepts we're witnessing here in 40k and have been witnessing over the last 3 editions.
[youtube]UZ5BpeHVTWY[/youtube]
Some of the salient points later on in the video are about how randomising matchmaking, loot drops and item quality through an extremely reductive system (which is directly relevant to 40k and I'll demonstrate in just a moment) did great damage to the game through infuriating a large portion of its playerbase most notably older players who have more alternatives and life experience and through this lost a great portion of its potential customer base. Much of what is said in the video predicates on the team at Bungie relying on pre-orders for 'collectors editions' to make the bulk of their money and that this is not an unreasonable assumption. Destiny marketing was famously 500million and it made all of that back within the first week.
Getting back to the parallels between destiny and 40k I believe they both function on one or two fundamental balancing principles.
1. Randomisation. Randomising everything to the Nth degree guarantees that bad players win occasionally, that little kids who aren't good at all can still come out breaking even or even winning against better players and better lists because randomisation of dice rolls saved their asses.
2. Reductivism. Every single activity in the game is now getting its own set of rules and sub-rules. These rules have had more randomisation injected (notice a trend yet?) even when its not completely appropriate. By reducing scenarios into easily compartmentalised chunks and then spinning them on the lottery wheel of chance you help to even out the success/failure rates of players and force an arbitrary sense of balance on the game. What GW game designers have done essentially is this: they've taken every army that could conceivably succeed based on tactics and nuance and reduced their capacity to rely on sound strategy for victory. This reduction in viability for specialist units especially fragile ones like dark eldar leads to identifying units that are the most effective and spamming them. Caveat emptor; this has always already happened to a degree yes, but predominantly because some units like 5th ed spacewolves and GK being badly designed by a bad game developer. The units we see spammed on the board aren't even necessarily the ones with the best special rules. Typically it's a saturation of high toughness, high strength models with one or two gimmicks inherent to their unit type. Flying daemon princes, most gargantuan creatures, (jet)biker blobs, terminator/centurion blobs, mounted wolflord spam, jumppack infantry spam etcetera etcetera.
These two factors combine to create the modern 40k we have today. If you haven't yet watched that video fully yet then you could stand to do so now to really see how it all ties together. The reduction of content upfront in a codex being supplemented in other books (effectively tabletops version of microtransactions), special pay-to-win creatures and rules, the breaking down of cohesion via unbound lists, the breaking down of victorious strategies by implementing more and more random elements in order to make the game more accessible for the 11-14 year olds that we see in the stores everywhere, with almost noone over 21 to be seen ever except for the staff. The erosion of the official tournament scene as an attempt to circumvent criticism for a broken game.
If you ever get the feeling like you've lost interest in the game it's not because you have - it's because you haven't swallowed the koolaid and pandered to the companies anti-consumer corporate strategy. If you feel like you've been consistently robbed of wins by the dice [b][u]it's because you actually have, by design, been robbed of wins[/u][/b] because GW doesn't want you to always beat the kids at your FLGS every time. And this frustrates many players especially older players who consciously or sub-consciously recognise they're being scammed and refuse to tolerate it any more, so they leave the hobby and leave behind the bulk percentage of customers who are typically younger and more willing to accept at face value that the game they are playing is balanced and fair.
When threads like this can demonstrate that within merely 3 editions it went from being pretty balanced to just an outright joke, not taken seriously by the community at large because of it's enduring association with little kids and toys that are becoming increasingly visually dense to compensate for the diminishing number of uses for the models on the table.
I'd like to weigh in here briefly and say that BDobbins did an excellent series of videos on some of the concepts we're witnessing here in 40k and have been witnessing over the last 3 editions.
[youtube]UZ5BpeHVTWY[/youtube]
Some of the salient points later on in the video are about how randomising matchmaking, loot drops and item quality through an extremely reductive system (which is directly relevant to 40k and I'll demonstrate in just a moment) did great damage to the game through infuriating a large portion of its playerbase most notably older players who have more alternatives and life experience and through this lost a great portion of its potential customer base. Much of what is said in the video predicates on the team at Bungie relying on pre-orders for 'collectors editions' to make the bulk of their money and that this is not an unreasonable assumption. Destiny marketing was famously 500million and it made all of that back within the first week.
Getting back to the parallels between destiny and 40k I believe they both function on one or two fundamental balancing principles.
1. Randomisation. Randomising everything to the Nth degree guarantees that bad players win occasionally, that little kids who aren't good at all can still come out breaking even or even winning against better players and better lists because randomisation of dice rolls saved their asses.
2. Reductivism. Every single activity in the game is now getting its own set of rules and sub-rules. These rules have had more randomisation injected (notice a trend yet?) even when its not completely appropriate. By reducing scenarios into easily compartmentalised chunks and then spinning them on the lottery wheel of chance you help to even out the success/failure rates of players and force an arbitrary sense of balance on the game. What GW game designers have done essentially is this: they've taken every army that could conceivably succeed based on tactics and nuance and reduced their capacity to rely on sound strategy for victory. This reduction in viability for specialist units especially fragile ones like dark eldar leads to identifying units that are the most effective and spamming them. Caveat emptor; this has always already happened to a degree yes, but predominantly because some units like 5th ed spacewolves and GK being badly designed by a bad game developer. The units we see spammed on the board aren't even necessarily the ones with the best special rules. Typically it's a saturation of high toughness, high strength models with one or two gimmicks inherent to their unit type. Flying daemon princes, most gargantuan creatures, (jet)biker blobs, terminator/centurion blobs, mounted wolflord spam, jumppack infantry spam etcetera etcetera.
These two factors combine to create the modern 40k we have today. If you haven't yet watched that video fully yet then you could stand to do so now to really see how it all ties together. The reduction of content upfront in a codex being supplemented in other books (effectively tabletops version of microtransactions), special pay-to-win creatures and rules, the breaking down of cohesion via unbound lists, the breaking down of victorious strategies by implementing more and more random elements in order to make the game more accessible for the 11-14 year olds that we see in the stores everywhere, with almost noone over 21 to be seen ever except for the staff. The erosion of the official tournament scene as an attempt to circumvent criticism for a broken game.
If you ever get the feeling like you've lost interest in the game it's not because you have - it's because you haven't swallowed the koolaid and pandered to the companies anti-consumer corporate strategy. If you feel like you've been consistently robbed of wins by the dice [b][u]it's because you actually have, by design, been robbed of wins[/u][/b] because GW doesn't want you to always beat the kids at your FLGS every time. And this frustrates many players especially older players who consciously or sub-consciously recognise they're being scammed and refuse to tolerate it any more, so they leave the hobby and leave behind the bulk percentage of customers who are typically younger and more willing to accept at face value that the game they are playing is balanced and fair.
When threads like this can demonstrate that within merely 3 editions it went from being pretty balanced to just an outright joke, not taken seriously by the community at large because of it's enduring association with little kids and toys that are becoming increasingly visually dense to compensate for the diminishing number of uses for the models on the table.
Wednesday, May 13, 2015
Another extract from 4chan debates. Another example of the community being in the wrong. I've attempted to differentiate different speakers with different colours. My text will be black/white. Red as always is my in-editing stuff.
Here's a pure fun list for a minor tourney.
I already cleared with the TO that I can use my Knight Errants/Paladins as Knight Gallants as long as I fix some obvious melee weapons to the barrel of the guns.
Exalted Court OR Baronial Court
- Knight Lancer (430)
Warlord, Helm of the Nameless Warrior
- Knight Gallant (325)
- Knight Gallant (325)
- Knight Gallant (325)
- Knight Gallant (325)
1730/1750
"pure fun list
5 Knights
I don't think anyones gonna have fun playing against you with 5 knights you massive twat"
S5/S6 shots can score glancing or penetrating hits on most vehicles in 40k.
What game are you playing? Land of Landraiders? No seriously tell me how you arrived at this conclusion I'm super curious because I've managed to annhilate almost every opponent I've ever had. I normally win via tabling in turn 6 so I have a seriously hard time believing you really think s5/s6 won't kill your vehicles.
I'd like to interject myself here and remind everyone that with the old 4th edition codex the ONLY priority an eldar player had was to maximise the number of S6 shots they had. This meant copy-paste lists with the infamous 'DA tax' that allowed you take another waveserpent with TL scatter lasers and underslung shuriken cannon. While that's somewhat no longer relevant these old school lists would probably make modern players shit their pants what with bladestorm now being a thing and eldar thus having a very very strong 24"-36" S6 representation. Entire armies would evapourate under 200+ S6 hits a turn. At 2000 points.
That's great, but Knights are AV13/13/12, with 6 HP and a 4+ Invulnerable save on one facing each turn. Individually they're far from unmanagable, but unless you've had advance warning and know to pack your list with loads of anti-tank weapons, a whole army of the things can make for a very lopsided game.
are imperial knights the new boogey men or something?
If the army is pants-on-head OP that's not my problem because I didn't design them and nothing forces me to play with people using them. I don't list tailor and unless knights can't get 1h1k shot then you still only need 1 good hit to bring them down.
It's not commonly known but 40k does actually express a mostly balanced game environment. Win/loss ratios for armies sit mostly in the 40-55% range. If knights are OP today that could be an expression of players not knowing how to deal with them or it could be an expression of GW's corporate cynicism leaking through again.
Did they update all the codexes to validate renewals of their patents? Did they update them to make the game balanced? Does the update provide motivation to play more armies? Did the update scheme provide them a justification to play the oopsie card when they release cash grab shit like $800 for some special rules.
Being skeptical of GW's business decisions isn't scare mongering; it's sensible. By moving to a more frequent update schedule they directly impact their bottom line. It also allows them to fiddle with balance more frequently and thus cause spergs and netlisters to impulse buy more shit.
This. I used the word 'lopsided' for a reason.
Also, an army that's balanced to play against is not necessarily an army that's fun to play against. Playing against an army that effectively reduces your own force to ~20 models capable of dealing damage and a host of ablative wounds can leave a bad taste in some peoples' mouths, regardless of whether they win or lose.
And this has exactly what to do with my original proclamation that s5/s6 is a useful and underutilised source of damage in 40k?
With rending I have used reavers to kill landraiders and a baneblade. How much fun you get out of something is entirely subjective and I'm not interested in debating a point like that.
You can even kill knights with assault cannons if that's your flavour. There's a metric fuckload of options to use in killing anything with an armour score but people fixate on reliably doing it in 2 turns or less which is not what a balanced game of 40k is ever going to allow.
I would instead focus on disabling their ability to shoot via any special weapon that can affect them.
The most salient point being: don't play with people you don't have fun playing against.
If you play in tournaments then suck it up you get what you came for.
Scaremongering, browbeating and obstinate behavious are the hallmark of the bad community. This is just a small slice of the hypocrisy and ignorance that permeates the hobby. People treating things like codexes as the word of god, that finding GW releasing codexes which are overpowered as being examples of how dumb you are and how bad that game is is a really interesting if tiresome thing to see. How balanced and 'fun' would it be if every weapon you packed could kill a mini-titan? People cheesing with pure knight lists will eventually get their just desserts - noone will want to play them. It's social darwinism in effect here, if the knight codex is truly as game breaking as people suggest then eventually knights will kill off their own prey because they were too effective. GW shouldn't let that happen obviously because it's bad for their game but with rumours abound about them clamouring for quick cash who even knows.
The new admech models had probably been in design and engineering stages for years now, having done injection moulding shit before I can pretty much guarantee what we're seeing now is only the last 5% of GWs corporate venture in releasing this model range.
Here's a pure fun list for a minor tourney.
I already cleared with the TO that I can use my Knight Errants/Paladins as Knight Gallants as long as I fix some obvious melee weapons to the barrel of the guns.
Exalted Court OR Baronial Court
- Knight Lancer (430)
Warlord, Helm of the Nameless Warrior
- Knight Gallant (325)
- Knight Gallant (325)
- Knight Gallant (325)
- Knight Gallant (325)
1730/1750
"pure fun list
5 Knights
I don't think anyones gonna have fun playing against you with 5 knights you massive twat"
S5/S6 shots can score glancing or penetrating hits on most vehicles in 40k.
What game are you playing? Land of Landraiders? No seriously tell me how you arrived at this conclusion I'm super curious because I've managed to annhilate almost every opponent I've ever had. I normally win via tabling in turn 6 so I have a seriously hard time believing you really think s5/s6 won't kill your vehicles.
I'd like to interject myself here and remind everyone that with the old 4th edition codex the ONLY priority an eldar player had was to maximise the number of S6 shots they had. This meant copy-paste lists with the infamous 'DA tax' that allowed you take another waveserpent with TL scatter lasers and underslung shuriken cannon. While that's somewhat no longer relevant these old school lists would probably make modern players shit their pants what with bladestorm now being a thing and eldar thus having a very very strong 24"-36" S6 representation. Entire armies would evapourate under 200+ S6 hits a turn. At 2000 points.
That's great, but Knights are AV13/13/12, with 6 HP and a 4+ Invulnerable save on one facing each turn. Individually they're far from unmanagable, but unless you've had advance warning and know to pack your list with loads of anti-tank weapons, a whole army of the things can make for a very lopsided game.
are imperial knights the new boogey men or something?
If the army is pants-on-head OP that's not my problem because I didn't design them and nothing forces me to play with people using them. I don't list tailor and unless knights can't get 1h1k shot then you still only need 1 good hit to bring them down.
It's not commonly known but 40k does actually express a mostly balanced game environment. Win/loss ratios for armies sit mostly in the 40-55% range. If knights are OP today that could be an expression of players not knowing how to deal with them or it could be an expression of GW's corporate cynicism leaking through again.
Did they update all the codexes to validate renewals of their patents? Did they update them to make the game balanced? Does the update provide motivation to play more armies? Did the update scheme provide them a justification to play the oopsie card when they release cash grab shit like $800 for some special rules.
Being skeptical of GW's business decisions isn't scare mongering; it's sensible. By moving to a more frequent update schedule they directly impact their bottom line. It also allows them to fiddle with balance more frequently and thus cause spergs and netlisters to impulse buy more shit.
This. I used the word 'lopsided' for a reason.
Also, an army that's balanced to play against is not necessarily an army that's fun to play against. Playing against an army that effectively reduces your own force to ~20 models capable of dealing damage and a host of ablative wounds can leave a bad taste in some peoples' mouths, regardless of whether they win or lose.
And this has exactly what to do with my original proclamation that s5/s6 is a useful and underutilised source of damage in 40k?
With rending I have used reavers to kill landraiders and a baneblade. How much fun you get out of something is entirely subjective and I'm not interested in debating a point like that.
You can even kill knights with assault cannons if that's your flavour. There's a metric fuckload of options to use in killing anything with an armour score but people fixate on reliably doing it in 2 turns or less which is not what a balanced game of 40k is ever going to allow.
I would instead focus on disabling their ability to shoot via any special weapon that can affect them.
The most salient point being: don't play with people you don't have fun playing against.
If you play in tournaments then suck it up you get what you came for.
Scaremongering, browbeating and obstinate behavious are the hallmark of the bad community. This is just a small slice of the hypocrisy and ignorance that permeates the hobby. People treating things like codexes as the word of god, that finding GW releasing codexes which are overpowered as being examples of how dumb you are and how bad that game is is a really interesting if tiresome thing to see. How balanced and 'fun' would it be if every weapon you packed could kill a mini-titan? People cheesing with pure knight lists will eventually get their just desserts - noone will want to play them. It's social darwinism in effect here, if the knight codex is truly as game breaking as people suggest then eventually knights will kill off their own prey because they were too effective. GW shouldn't let that happen obviously because it's bad for their game but with rumours abound about them clamouring for quick cash who even knows.
The new admech models had probably been in design and engineering stages for years now, having done injection moulding shit before I can pretty much guarantee what we're seeing now is only the last 5% of GWs corporate venture in releasing this model range.
Before this thought completely leaves my mind:
Been watching some youtubes surrounding the old controversies about gamergate, anita sarkesian and zoey quinn.
I don't remember ever having much of an opinion on the topic aside from desiring more transparency from people claiming to be journalists and public speakers. So here we are 3 years later and watching these old videos just dredges up memories of how hysterical everything got.
Jim Sterling mentioned some interesting things in his video on the subject but one of them really stuck out, the idea that fence sitters in the debate are getting tarred with the same brush. Are we? Especially those of us who browse 4chan? I'm anonymous, noone has any idea who I am. How am I being personally affected by anything said on there or about it? I'm not. The views people are taking in the wider public from '4channers' is not representative of anybody really.
I'm not plugging my ears Jim. Never did. I just found your sweeping generalisations to be as credulous as the others' in their smear campaigns. Everybody involved is wrong. Fence sitting is a failure of either side of the debate to engage and convince the fence sitters to join their cause.
People posting horrible tweets on industry pundits is not to be taken as the literal view of everyone involved or of everyone from that same source, no matter who they are or where they claim to be from. But you knew this already didn't you? As a public speaker that's irresponsible. With later videos Jim has said that his views became more moderate and tolerant and I fully believe that to be true but did he ever take back some of the misinformed shit he said during the height of the debate? I guess I'll never know. The professional thing to do is not to make these ridiculous videos in the first place. Totalbiscuit braved the lions den to talk to 4chan people about it and walked away probably slightly less ambivalent about 4chan than he was before. If only more people would directly engage that community they would have seen all the threads posted non-stop calling to action for members of 4chan to NOT shitpost on other websites, peoples blogs and tweets and generally do not engage in any interaction with media socialites at all. If that had been catalogued would opinions of a website that I've been visiting since 2007 be different? I know 4chan culture better than a lot of people. It's a culture of mostly icy indifference. Anons are realists: the world is a terrible place, anon is an easy scapegoat and games journalists are mostly corrupt.
Noone at 4chan ever gave a shit about zoey quinn the human being, they cared about her manipulating facts and opinions through biased outlets in order to promote her career. Same as Anita Saarkesian who has been given a massive boost to her public speaking career through using this abuse she suffered (from whom I wonder, certainly not us, we didn't care enough) in order to profit.
And what about everyone else? Can I tar you with the same brush Jim? Was being topical a temporary boost for you too? Getting on board with the hype and controversy and making a 5 minute video during the zenith of the public spotlight did that benefit you? Like it did for kotaku and IGN and all those others?
I don't feel sorry for zoey quinn and I certainly won't defend her from abuse and harassment because I don't give a fuck about her. I'm not fence sitting, I'm staying staunchly neutral until some real facts are presented that we can then talk about. Shame for her though it seems the only facts we've had to discuss is how she slept with a bunch of guys and then had psychologically unstable idiots threaten her.
And that's what this all stems from isn't it. Idiots desiring their 15 minutes of fame by escalating every discussion and degrading it to the most base level as quickly as they can to keep the fire burning. These idiots exist on both sides of the debate. Instead of pragmatism we see constant emotional outbursts.
What about today? Today on 4chan Anita's theories have little weight, her credibility is in tatters after revelations that most of her source material is fabricated and any desire for debate to see her relevance restored is muted due to the ease with which people can debunk her arguments. Yes tropes against women had a valid angle but the execution was poor and the woman leading it all inadequate for the task. $10,000 to speak wasn't too shabby though.
Been watching some youtubes surrounding the old controversies about gamergate, anita sarkesian and zoey quinn.
I don't remember ever having much of an opinion on the topic aside from desiring more transparency from people claiming to be journalists and public speakers. So here we are 3 years later and watching these old videos just dredges up memories of how hysterical everything got.
Jim Sterling mentioned some interesting things in his video on the subject but one of them really stuck out, the idea that fence sitters in the debate are getting tarred with the same brush. Are we? Especially those of us who browse 4chan? I'm anonymous, noone has any idea who I am. How am I being personally affected by anything said on there or about it? I'm not. The views people are taking in the wider public from '4channers' is not representative of anybody really.
I'm not plugging my ears Jim. Never did. I just found your sweeping generalisations to be as credulous as the others' in their smear campaigns. Everybody involved is wrong. Fence sitting is a failure of either side of the debate to engage and convince the fence sitters to join their cause.
People posting horrible tweets on industry pundits is not to be taken as the literal view of everyone involved or of everyone from that same source, no matter who they are or where they claim to be from. But you knew this already didn't you? As a public speaker that's irresponsible. With later videos Jim has said that his views became more moderate and tolerant and I fully believe that to be true but did he ever take back some of the misinformed shit he said during the height of the debate? I guess I'll never know. The professional thing to do is not to make these ridiculous videos in the first place. Totalbiscuit braved the lions den to talk to 4chan people about it and walked away probably slightly less ambivalent about 4chan than he was before. If only more people would directly engage that community they would have seen all the threads posted non-stop calling to action for members of 4chan to NOT shitpost on other websites, peoples blogs and tweets and generally do not engage in any interaction with media socialites at all. If that had been catalogued would opinions of a website that I've been visiting since 2007 be different? I know 4chan culture better than a lot of people. It's a culture of mostly icy indifference. Anons are realists: the world is a terrible place, anon is an easy scapegoat and games journalists are mostly corrupt.
Noone at 4chan ever gave a shit about zoey quinn the human being, they cared about her manipulating facts and opinions through biased outlets in order to promote her career. Same as Anita Saarkesian who has been given a massive boost to her public speaking career through using this abuse she suffered (from whom I wonder, certainly not us, we didn't care enough) in order to profit.
And what about everyone else? Can I tar you with the same brush Jim? Was being topical a temporary boost for you too? Getting on board with the hype and controversy and making a 5 minute video during the zenith of the public spotlight did that benefit you? Like it did for kotaku and IGN and all those others?
I don't feel sorry for zoey quinn and I certainly won't defend her from abuse and harassment because I don't give a fuck about her. I'm not fence sitting, I'm staying staunchly neutral until some real facts are presented that we can then talk about. Shame for her though it seems the only facts we've had to discuss is how she slept with a bunch of guys and then had psychologically unstable idiots threaten her.
And that's what this all stems from isn't it. Idiots desiring their 15 minutes of fame by escalating every discussion and degrading it to the most base level as quickly as they can to keep the fire burning. These idiots exist on both sides of the debate. Instead of pragmatism we see constant emotional outbursts.
What about today? Today on 4chan Anita's theories have little weight, her credibility is in tatters after revelations that most of her source material is fabricated and any desire for debate to see her relevance restored is muted due to the ease with which people can debunk her arguments. Yes tropes against women had a valid angle but the execution was poor and the woman leading it all inadequate for the task. $10,000 to speak wasn't too shabby though.
Tuesday, May 12, 2015
The following is a conversation on the 3++ sites chatbox, as I tried to hunt down decent blogs to read and find out why so many of the old ones were discontinued, dropped or deleted.
This is going to come under the catagory for: some people are completely insane and need to get a smack in the head so the shit they call brains has another chance to settle.
mrbeniss: im going through all these old links i have to 40k blogs man there has been some attrition
mrbeniss: any good ones left?
captaingrizz: meh mostly just rumours or fanbois now
captaingrizz: you dont like 3 plain ole drones with a Standard?
GloriousDemise: nope
mrbeniss: That's kind of tragic really. I wonder what GW had to do to make so many people give up on them
GloriousDemise: GW hasnt been given up on
GloriousDemise: the problem is keeping up with the output is nigh impossible
GloriousDemise: there's something akin to 20+ new detachments across the board
GloriousDemise: there's formations outt he yingyang, supplemental books add more chaos
mrbeniss: the last game i played a few days ago we were using 4 codexes and the BRB
mrbeniss: thats a lot of shit to consider
captaingrizz: years with slow to no steady content or release schedule, then ramping it into overdrive and the only thing theyve stayed consistant about is the lack of communication with customers and players?
mrbeniss: so is the complaint about the backflip on their release schedule, a perceived balance problem or their PR stance? Because I don't think any of those things have ever stood in the way of internet personalities posting their opinions before
GloriousDemise: what do you mean backflip on release schedule?
GloriousDemise: they ran out of old books already
mrbeniss: going from nothing to full overdrive was the comment
GloriousDemise: theres never been complaints about it
GloriousDemise: most people are happy to get their books updated.
mrbeniss: a new edition and codex every 2-4 years is what i thought we'd all expect
GloriousDemise: are they happy with the updated rules in the book is a different issue
captaingrizz: theres tons of complaints about the current release schedule....
mrbeniss: im happy enough with the new rules, it broke the backs of certain playstyles completely and those playstyles were not healthy
GloriousDemise: most of those complaints are beyond retarded grizz
captaingrizz: lol. new eldar is healthy?
mrbeniss: i didnt say army, i said play style
captaingrizz: in your opinion GD
mrbeniss: as in MSU/parkinglot
mrbeniss: its still very strong in some situations
GloriousDemise: theres not a valid based opinion in regards to most of those complaints
mrbeniss: but not as common
PoundPuppie: shure because eerythig after it is going to be more amped people already crying admek going to be over powed because it has ignore cover
GloriousDemise: Actually havent seen a complaint that was actually valid
GloriousDemise: in regards to the release schedule.
captaingrizz: again, in your opinion
captaingrizz: just because you dont agree with it doesnt invalidate it
GloriousDemise: find a valid complaint then based on your opinion grizz.
GloriousDemise: its not about my opinion on it
captaingrizz: I assume you think the games the best it's ever been. lots would disagree
GloriousDemise: Whining because GW pumped out a new book after 1-2 years instead of 6 isn't a valid opinion.
PoundPuppie: they just need to keep realeaseing nobody s obligated to buy anything
GloriousDemise: I dont agree that its the best
GloriousDemise: I actually stated the opposite.
GloriousDemise: In regards to the rules INSIDE of the new releases.
GloriousDemise: But most of those people where bitching when theyre book was 6 years old and getting shit stomped
mrbeniss: I knew people using the 4th ed tyranids book instead of the 6th back in those days. you play the game you want to play
mrbeniss: yeah i havent touched my eldar since 5th ed because of the lingering effects of the codex i had
captaingrizz: you cant just pick a codex from another edition and use it
PoundPuppie: thats fine i could care less what people play its about options
GloriousDemise: having an issues with the rules should not count valid against the release schedule
mrbeniss: and then they released an update that was almost a copy-paste of the original book and i gave up completely
captaingrizz: i dont care about the release schedule, i care about the lack of communication with players
GloriousDemise: at the rate theyre pumping out theres no way they could
captaingrizz: are you complaining about 6th ed eldar?
GloriousDemise: unless they hire a staff just for that.
mrbeniss: grizz if i allow it then thats what happens, and they suffer the effects of having special rules and stuff that might no longer exist
PoundPuppie: so you wan t people to play old shit and the people who have new shit are like fuck that is what your say mrben
mrbeniss: i got the 6th ed eldar book on my bookshelf, it didn't particularly change what i felt was bad in the old book and what i had in my army so i dropped it. haven't opened it since 2013?
captaingrizz: heh
captaingrizz: thats the first complaint ive heard about someone not wanting to play 6th ed eldar...
GloriousDemise: well he does have a valid point
PoundPuppie: 6th edition eldar book was good
GloriousDemise: 6th didnt fix the previous eldar book
GloriousDemise: it just broke serpents.
mrbeniss: wut. where did i say i force people to play old armies? i said they're free to do so and i would allow it
captaingrizz: hey theres a formation with the wraith knight right
PoundPuppie: who said gw needs to refix every codex they redo they dont
PoundPuppie: in fact them releasing it is better then them not supporting it at all and removeing the army
mrbeniss: and noone is disagreeing with you? that's called product support?
PoundPuppie: yup
PoundPuppie: capt there is
captaingrizz: what did i disagree with
PoundPuppie: as a matter of fact there are 2 formations
captaingrizz: i see wraith host
captaingrizz: thats it]
PoundPuppie: and wraith construct
GloriousDemise: wraith construct is a formation inside of a formation
GloriousDemise: but there is also the stand alone formation wraith host
captaingrizz: isnt that in their dichurion
GloriousDemise: But i think that one is forced 3 units of WG
captaingrizz: yeah
PoundPuppie: exaactly capt asked if there is a wraith formation i said yes there are 2
GloriousDemise: yeah the Decurion has the Wraith Construct.
captaingrizz: meh, might be cheaper than the mandatory shit form the dichurion
GloriousDemise: yes and no
GloriousDemise: the jetbike formation that is required is still pretty cheap
PoundPuppie: if you just want a writh knight in your eldar army you just take a writh construct with one the mandatory hosts
GloriousDemise: but you still cant really spam the wraith construct formation in there.
PoundPuppie: shure you can you can play 3 in an army easy
GloriousDemise: thats not really spamming but yeah
GloriousDemise: thats not a real change from the old book
PoundPuppie: you can play 6
GloriousDemise: that is possible but handicaps the army
GloriousDemise: and basically rocks papper scissors you lose lol
Shadowmancer1: I need to get another couple of Wraithguard boxes
Shadowmancer1: and a Wraithlord
PoundPuppie: im just saying you can can spam if you want i mean its all about objectives and your not gettting them off one unless your brining it to them
Shadowmancer1: then I can run that formation
captaingrizz: 70+160+160+160+120+295 for WK formation
PoundPuppie: for what formantion
PoundPuppie: capt
captaingrizz: i dont have any eldar, im just thinking about taking a few WK as cheap as possible
captaingrizz: wraithhost
PoundPuppie: if you do the bikes you can have like 3 51 point units 1 50 point units farsseer and a warlock
PoundPuppie: and all the wk you wat
mrbenis: this conversation it hilarious, it went from a discussion about how GW are upsetting their customers to how to most effectively spam eldar formations. another great segue
captaingrizz: you asked why so many people quit and were upset
captaingrizz: got nothing to do with this conversation
mrbenis: oh my god man I'm done. peace out
Can anyone see why I get sick of these people? Their myopic 2-dimensional view of life boils down to bitching about shit they don't understand and then whipping the white tiger over whatever FOTM shit is in fashion. They flew completely offtopic at the drop of a hat due to what I can only see as an inability to directly address their problems. These people actually exist in real life and it saddens me to see them able to congregate so easily. This is why anonymity is important on the internet people, to break down a congregation of morons ability to form.
This is going to come under the catagory for: some people are completely insane and need to get a smack in the head so the shit they call brains has another chance to settle.
mrbeniss: im going through all these old links i have to 40k blogs man there has been some attrition
mrbeniss: any good ones left?
captaingrizz: meh mostly just rumours or fanbois now
captaingrizz: you dont like 3 plain ole drones with a Standard?
GloriousDemise: nope
mrbeniss: That's kind of tragic really. I wonder what GW had to do to make so many people give up on them
GloriousDemise: GW hasnt been given up on
GloriousDemise: the problem is keeping up with the output is nigh impossible
GloriousDemise: there's something akin to 20+ new detachments across the board
GloriousDemise: there's formations outt he yingyang, supplemental books add more chaos
mrbeniss: the last game i played a few days ago we were using 4 codexes and the BRB
mrbeniss: thats a lot of shit to consider
captaingrizz: years with slow to no steady content or release schedule, then ramping it into overdrive and the only thing theyve stayed consistant about is the lack of communication with customers and players?
mrbeniss: so is the complaint about the backflip on their release schedule, a perceived balance problem or their PR stance? Because I don't think any of those things have ever stood in the way of internet personalities posting their opinions before
GloriousDemise: what do you mean backflip on release schedule?
GloriousDemise: they ran out of old books already
mrbeniss: going from nothing to full overdrive was the comment
GloriousDemise: theres never been complaints about it
GloriousDemise: most people are happy to get their books updated.
mrbeniss: a new edition and codex every 2-4 years is what i thought we'd all expect
GloriousDemise: are they happy with the updated rules in the book is a different issue
captaingrizz: theres tons of complaints about the current release schedule....
mrbeniss: im happy enough with the new rules, it broke the backs of certain playstyles completely and those playstyles were not healthy
GloriousDemise: most of those complaints are beyond retarded grizz
captaingrizz: lol. new eldar is healthy?
mrbeniss: i didnt say army, i said play style
captaingrizz: in your opinion GD
mrbeniss: as in MSU/parkinglot
mrbeniss: its still very strong in some situations
GloriousDemise: theres not a valid based opinion in regards to most of those complaints
mrbeniss: but not as common
PoundPuppie: shure because eerythig after it is going to be more amped people already crying admek going to be over powed because it has ignore cover
GloriousDemise: Actually havent seen a complaint that was actually valid
GloriousDemise: in regards to the release schedule.
captaingrizz: again, in your opinion
captaingrizz: just because you dont agree with it doesnt invalidate it
GloriousDemise: find a valid complaint then based on your opinion grizz.
GloriousDemise: its not about my opinion on it
captaingrizz: I assume you think the games the best it's ever been. lots would disagree
GloriousDemise: Whining because GW pumped out a new book after 1-2 years instead of 6 isn't a valid opinion.
PoundPuppie: they just need to keep realeaseing nobody s obligated to buy anything
GloriousDemise: I dont agree that its the best
GloriousDemise: I actually stated the opposite.
GloriousDemise: In regards to the rules INSIDE of the new releases.
GloriousDemise: But most of those people where bitching when theyre book was 6 years old and getting shit stomped
mrbeniss: I knew people using the 4th ed tyranids book instead of the 6th back in those days. you play the game you want to play
mrbeniss: yeah i havent touched my eldar since 5th ed because of the lingering effects of the codex i had
captaingrizz: you cant just pick a codex from another edition and use it
PoundPuppie: thats fine i could care less what people play its about options
GloriousDemise: having an issues with the rules should not count valid against the release schedule
mrbeniss: and then they released an update that was almost a copy-paste of the original book and i gave up completely
captaingrizz: i dont care about the release schedule, i care about the lack of communication with players
GloriousDemise: at the rate theyre pumping out theres no way they could
captaingrizz: are you complaining about 6th ed eldar?
GloriousDemise: unless they hire a staff just for that.
mrbeniss: grizz if i allow it then thats what happens, and they suffer the effects of having special rules and stuff that might no longer exist
PoundPuppie: so you wan t people to play old shit and the people who have new shit are like fuck that is what your say mrben
mrbeniss: i got the 6th ed eldar book on my bookshelf, it didn't particularly change what i felt was bad in the old book and what i had in my army so i dropped it. haven't opened it since 2013?
captaingrizz: heh
captaingrizz: thats the first complaint ive heard about someone not wanting to play 6th ed eldar...
GloriousDemise: well he does have a valid point
PoundPuppie: 6th edition eldar book was good
GloriousDemise: 6th didnt fix the previous eldar book
GloriousDemise: it just broke serpents.
mrbeniss: wut. where did i say i force people to play old armies? i said they're free to do so and i would allow it
captaingrizz: hey theres a formation with the wraith knight right
PoundPuppie: who said gw needs to refix every codex they redo they dont
PoundPuppie: in fact them releasing it is better then them not supporting it at all and removeing the army
mrbeniss: and noone is disagreeing with you? that's called product support?
PoundPuppie: yup
PoundPuppie: capt there is
captaingrizz: what did i disagree with
PoundPuppie: as a matter of fact there are 2 formations
captaingrizz: i see wraith host
captaingrizz: thats it]
PoundPuppie: and wraith construct
GloriousDemise: wraith construct is a formation inside of a formation
GloriousDemise: but there is also the stand alone formation wraith host
captaingrizz: isnt that in their dichurion
GloriousDemise: But i think that one is forced 3 units of WG
captaingrizz: yeah
PoundPuppie: exaactly capt asked if there is a wraith formation i said yes there are 2
GloriousDemise: yeah the Decurion has the Wraith Construct.
captaingrizz: meh, might be cheaper than the mandatory shit form the dichurion
GloriousDemise: yes and no
GloriousDemise: the jetbike formation that is required is still pretty cheap
PoundPuppie: if you just want a writh knight in your eldar army you just take a writh construct with one the mandatory hosts
GloriousDemise: but you still cant really spam the wraith construct formation in there.
PoundPuppie: shure you can you can play 3 in an army easy
GloriousDemise: thats not really spamming but yeah
GloriousDemise: thats not a real change from the old book
PoundPuppie: you can play 6
GloriousDemise: that is possible but handicaps the army
GloriousDemise: and basically rocks papper scissors you lose lol
Shadowmancer1: I need to get another couple of Wraithguard boxes
Shadowmancer1: and a Wraithlord
PoundPuppie: im just saying you can can spam if you want i mean its all about objectives and your not gettting them off one unless your brining it to them
Shadowmancer1: then I can run that formation
captaingrizz: 70+160+160+160+120+295 for WK formation
PoundPuppie: for what formantion
PoundPuppie: capt
captaingrizz: i dont have any eldar, im just thinking about taking a few WK as cheap as possible
captaingrizz: wraithhost
PoundPuppie: if you do the bikes you can have like 3 51 point units 1 50 point units farsseer and a warlock
PoundPuppie: and all the wk you wat
mrbenis: this conversation it hilarious, it went from a discussion about how GW are upsetting their customers to how to most effectively spam eldar formations. another great segue
captaingrizz: you asked why so many people quit and were upset
captaingrizz: got nothing to do with this conversation
mrbenis: oh my god man I'm done. peace out
Can anyone see why I get sick of these people? Their myopic 2-dimensional view of life boils down to bitching about shit they don't understand and then whipping the white tiger over whatever FOTM shit is in fashion. They flew completely offtopic at the drop of a hat due to what I can only see as an inability to directly address their problems. These people actually exist in real life and it saddens me to see them able to congregate so easily. This is why anonymity is important on the internet people, to break down a congregation of morons ability to form.
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